Thursday, January 10, 2008

Self-imposed exile from Butch-Femme.com

I recently left Butch-Femme.com, most likely for the final time.  In my three years, I tried to be a positive presence and while a lot of my posts there were academic or, at least, intellectual they were also, I hope, entertaining.  I wasn't the most popular person there, but my personality isn't one that is driven toward popularity at any rate.  About a month ago, I started a thread on BF where I asked a question about the over-the-top religiosity in the current American Presidential campaign.  In the last few days, a newcomer came into the thread and started ripping on myself and another poster, Matthew, who consistently have tried to use reason and rational argument in our postings.  This poster was insulting (to put it mildly) and the end came for me when she claimed that my posts were coming from the perspective of  'dead white men' and that there was nothing 'black or brown' about my rhetoric.  I know racism when I see it and this was easily the most racist thing said to me on BF.com.  What's more, all of these wonderful, liberal/progressive and allegedly oh-so-open-minded lesbians just sat back and watched.  No cries were raised in my defense or in the defense of Matthew, even while these women were patting themselves on the back for how 'open-minded' and 'tolerant' they putatively are. This was the straw that broke the camel's back.   All points of view are not respected, despite whatever rhetoric is used.  Rather, what is respected is fuzzy-thinking, platitudes and spiritual posturing.  Clear and reasonable thought is put-up with but is not tolerated and certainly not protected in the same way.  If this poster had said to any of a number of other BF member what she said to me, she would have been pilloried and rightly so. 

However, there is more to my leaving than merely a few incidents with a few fanatically New Age posters.  In the course of my three years there, I witnessed people doing everything they possibly could to avoid ever being in error.  By this I do not mean that folks did their homework to make sure that they had their facts straight.  Rather, they took a position that 'all world views are true to those that hold them' which, in one sense, is entirely true.  People do not believe things that they believe to be false.  However, to acknowledge the latter is not to endorse the strong relativism that has become part and parcel of the American Left.  Because if everyone is entitled to their world view and all world views are equally true (well, except a scientific or rational world view.  Say that you believe that the Virgin Mary appears in your tortilla, THIS is to be respected.  Say that humans share a recent common ancestor with chimps, and no such respect is forthcoming) then you need never be wrong.  The logic of this (if you can call it that) is straightforward.  If the person you disagree with can never be wrong, you can never be wrong.  It doesn't matter how contra-factual the statement is, if you believe it, it's true, and therefore it cannot be wrong. 

To offer up another example from BF.com, someone posted some New Age poppycock about a polar flip that is supposed to occur on 12 December 2012.  Now, at some point the magnetic poles will flip but this will not be a physical shift of the planet, merely the magnetic poles.  It has happened before, it will happen again.  Another poster, picking up the theme, claimed that the map of the Earth would change (it won't) and that this would be a sign of 'the final alien invasion' (I am not making this up, I swear).  So, it was left to me to point out what a polar shift entailed, why the map of the Earth won't change and why this has nothing to do with the orbital direction of the planet.  But did it make any difference?  No, of course it didn't!   Folks are still convinced that this has to do with the Mayan calendar, alien invasions and the planet literally being turned upside down!

At some point, I had an epiphany that folks not only dislike being wrong but that this particular sub-culture is obsessed with never having to admit to error.  From the 'if I don't call you wrong, you don't call me wrong' to the embrace of ignorance as a sign of moral strength and mature wisdom, it became clear to me that the worst thing that could ever happen was that one might have to say "I was wrong" or "I was in error".  And so, by unspoken agreement, a mythology has become an ideology.  The mythology is that we can get through life without having to admit error.  The ideology is multicultural relativism. 

Let me be clear that when I talk about multicultural relativism, I am talking about bromides like the idea that Native Americans are one with the Earth (they aren't, ask the Anasazi--oh, that's right, you can't they wiped themselves out in an environmental disaster), Indigenous People are holistic thinkers, etc.  What's more, the 'we love this' attitude, which I do not dispute or doubt, covers over the elephant in the progressive living room; these ideas are the very essence of racism.  It does not matter that one is coming from the perspective of "this is something to celebrate", the moment you start to say "well, Asians have an affinity for calculus and I respect people who can do calculus so that's wonderful" you have engaged in a stereotype and have made a statement that is, at its heart, racist.  (As a quick aside which I'll take up in another blog post, racism is not just what the guys in white sheets do)  It is racist because it attributes to a group qualities more appropriately adhering to individuals.  Saying "Indigenous People" are holistic thinkers dehumanizes the people talked about.  It does not matter if one is talking about ones' in-group, if one attributes this to something that people of group X are, because they are members of that group, it is still racism and still dehumanizing.  Wrapping it up in nice language doesn't change that equation at all.

Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers - Greatest Hits - Don't Come Around Here No More

17 comments:

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Matthew said...

I think you're being followed by vitriolic insane people.

Wolf said...

You know, Aj and I have been cross-posting for a long time now and most of the time we are on opposite sides of the debate.

Frankly, if I might set my own education aside for a moment, nothing changes on that website....not ever...you go ahead on back three years from now and the same people will be having the same conversations about nothing.

For a community that claims to be all about community building and open-minded acceptance of a diverse group, these are the most judgemental people I have ever met in my life.

I know straight, right-wing, fundamentalist Christian, old white guys that have more respect for diversity than these people that judge a person by how butch of femme they are.

Why do I stay there? For people like Aj....and Matthew...and a few others that make it worthwhile to ignore the bullshit.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for the "anon" moniker, but couldn't remem my google ID :p
-regardless- just wanted to say "where the heck were ya when I thought I was the only one who thought the peeps on b-f were a few donuts short of a dozen?" lol kidding (and yet...not lol)

Btw, nice picture.

Anonymous said...

hi, former b-f.com forum participant here. i've withdrawn from that site for different reasons, but am commenting 'coz i've just survived a similar experience in quite another forum. things you describe here are so true!
it took me a while to understand that online forums, like most 'free' and 'open' organizations, cast too wide a net and therefore attract the dregs of cyber society: the mentally unstable, people with anger mgt issues, people with terrible reading comprehension and atrocious reasoning skills [if one can call it that]. for some strange, cosmic reason, 'forumers' like you who are apparently well-read, intelligent, opinionated, rational, reasonable, even respectful, become target practice for the worst of the lot.
i've discovered that level-headed, measured responses to blatant flaming by miscreants tend to bring out the animal in them even more [an insult to animals everywhere, sorry]. they misread this as you beng the pushover for them to, well, push over. and the rest of the crew will sit back and enjoy the show at your expense.
you are spot on with no one coming to your defense even if they share your opinion. fear of being 'wrong'. fear is a huge motivator.
oh, and here was the deal breaker for me: site owner pm's, asking me to quit the "arguing", that i was upsetting people! he didn't say who or what kinda people. since when did reasoned response to offbeat, over the edge flaming become upsetting to others?
well, lesson learned. let's stick to fluff and stuff in online fora. talk about nothing, banter around a bit because the lowest denominator rules.
oh, btw, i'm asian, i flunked basic algebra twice and am bad at running a business. turns the stereotype 180 degrees, don't it?

Anonymous said...

I stumbled upon your site by accident, but I am glad I did. I have been on bf.com since 2002 but I rarely post. I agree with your assessment of the site. I have found an attitude of "KEEP it Light" "Keep it Simple" Not by all, but by the community at large. I have not posted much because I simply do not think or process that way. I don't find comfort in small talk. I am a deep thinker, intense and serious person and I like to read and ponder depth. I kept thinking to myself--oh maybe something is wrong with me--maybe I should just lighten up ---but then I realized no--I don't have time to just engage in bantar. I respect that it may be fun for som, but I guess I was/am looking for more and wish there was more. MORE, not just some. Yes I know I can find some of what I seek anywhere. I am glad you have posted this. I think you will find yourself in good company especially as it relates to the racism factor. I cannot help but believe that the response and tolerance a white person on this site gets--- the compassion, consideration and understanding they would get even when they say some stupid SH&**%T will not/has not been afforded the same consideration when it comes out of the mouth of a Black person. The Black people who might get such consideration always have to hide or mask some of what they say in a joking or light hearted way. There is no room or respect for Black intelligence. Does that make sense? If you are a Black person with a solid strong, position/opinion,there is an expectation that one "should" dummy down or else you might otherwise be considered "too" this or that such as too angry or too militant or too serious. Thank you for sharing your insights. btw my partner and I met you briefly at the Bash Karakoe event. Please continue to let your intelligent mind and position grace our world.
Sincerely,
Chocolate

Unknown said...

Thank you, Chocolate. And what you say about black intelligence on BF.com makes *perfect* sense. We can be earthy, we can be the wise woman of so many stereotypes in that we can say "honey child, I may not know much about no fancy calculus but I know she ain't doin' you right". That is fine and if we do so all observing will nod their heads and give rep points at our wisdom and heart. On the other hand, should you say "your argument is flawed. Here's why. If you're familiar with the writing of so-and-so then you can see why your position is logically inconsistent"

Anonymous said...

Hi. i, too, have experienced unsavoury bullying, ridicule, fruiting, and even a time-out at the site.

The newer site, the dance, is even Worse than bf. The Administrator encourages a thriving gang mentality, and cannot follow her own TOS!

So far, about 12 decent people have been banished over there at the dance without any sort of notice. bf, at least, gives a warning - as far as I know.

These sites are really bad!

Anonymous said...

I agree with above anon poster. I too experienced HORRIBLE treatment at butch femme dance! The owner runs that site with her emotions not professionalism. I was given NO reasoning for my time out. At least at Butch-femme.com they do send a warning and a reason. The fruitings may seem random at times but at least it is other members that can get childish, NOT the admin, like at BFD.

It is a sad sad site and poorly managed.

Anonymous said...

I am also a member and I hardly post on any of the sites because there is little to no discussion of anything that pertains to me or my life as a black person, and frankly I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing up anything for fear of being labeled a racist, once again.

On one of the sites specifically, about a year or two ago a very racist "joke" was posted. For days no one said anything so I finally wrote the poster off list and her excuse was that she had not read the joke but was simply passing it on for the list to enjoy and that she had no idea. So I posted to the list about this "joke" and she gave the same lame explanation to the list and then stated that I had been harassing her because I sent her two e mails regarding her "joke". Butch-femme had the audacity to send me a warning while that ignorant piece of trash was allowed to post all she wanted. No one ever said a word about how inappropriate her post was. The administrators never asked me anything, not what I posted to her, not what she posted to me, but she posted rubbish on a daily basis so I guess that made her a valuable contributor and me, the racist with a chip on my shoulder.

I'm still on some of the lists but I have no idea why.They serve absolutely no purpose in my life. If you don't nod your head in agreement with the masses it becomes a problem. Try to point out how flawed someone's thinking is and you become the problem. So why am I still there? I've tried to uns*b a few times but I gave up since al their mail goes into a junk e mail anyway, and most of these lists seem dead anyway.

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Unknown said...

Gee, I just joined BFP. Was under the impression that it was more of a social network and a place to share information about events. Perhaps it was never intended to be a serious debate platform. I'd love to see a really good room on Paltalk for lesbians. Paltalk is huge, yet nobody has opened a lesbian room for any purpose other than as a pick up and flirting chat room -- always in the Adult (sexual content) category. That, in itself, I find offensive, except that the dozen or so lesbian rooms are, in fact, sex rooms. There have to be mature lesbians who would like to discuss and debate and not take pleasure in being objectionable to minors.